Author Topic: Home Schooling  (Read 16238 times)

Offline Mince

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2019, 09:18:28 PM »
How's the bunker shaping up?  ;D

Portugal is looking really good. ;D

Offline Tarquin Thunderthighs lll

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2019, 11:28:24 AM »
But at least their children get a break from them while they're at school, and have a better chance of not turning out like those parents.

Why is it wrong to turn out like your parents? And why does going to school ensure that you don't?

I'm getting a little bored with your constant twisting of my words, but hey ho...
Turning out like your parents is an admirable aim in the majority of cases, but certainly not all. Often (do I really have to cover my every statement by adding 'though not exclusively'?) bigotry, xenophobia, prejudice, ignorance and violence is perpetuated within families, passed down from generation to generation. Attending school does not "ensure" (not what I said) that this changes, but I'd argue that it gives the child a better change of escaping the cycle, by hearing and seeing different and diverse views of the world from others around them, rather than spending most of it's time at home with its parents. Of course (before you insist on turning that into the same kind of blanket statement you have been throwing around throughout this debate), there is also the chance that bigotry, etc., can be reinforced at school. Nothing's perfect, but both should be open to scrutiny.

But it's okay to be prejudiced against LEAs and their employees?

Yes, I do if they believe they have the right or the ability to check whether an unschooled child is getting a good education.

I disagree, on both counts. I have the right and ability to do that.


I've gone out of my way to stress that I don't think there would be any problem with the vast majority of home-schoolers. Which is more than can be said about your opinion of educational authority employees.

I have only good things to say about LEA employees who don't exceed their authority.

I doubt that very much.


So you don't think some parents might be better equipped to judge this than others?

I don't think an unschooled child's education depends on anything to do with their parents.

Some who radically unschool do not force their children to learn anything they do not wish to, and yet these children manage to read entirely on their own, some before they are 5 and some as late as 11. They do this in exactly the same way they learn to speak their mother tongue by age 3.

Children can learn without having to be taught.

The girl who learned to read by 11 loves that she did this herself, and wrote a book and won poetry competitions before the age of 14.

I wonder whether an LEA inspector who would have condemned her parents as inadequate had they inspected the girl at the age of 10, still unable to read, would equally condemn every school as inadequate had they inspected the children at the age of 14, still unable to write competition-winning poetry or write a book.

So, is it about producing exceptional children who can win competitions, or about giving your child a better education? In Diane's case, it was partly about the practicalities in order to overcome the problem of distance of the alternative that made it necessary, which I would say is probably one of the better reasons for home-schooling, when there is no real practical alternative (though even then, you still need to have the skills to do it - you appear to be arguing that no skills are needed). But what if your decision results in your child not achieving the high standards you talk of (and those are also achieved by children who attend schools, by the way)? Are you going to feel you've failed them? Worse still, is your child going to feel they've failed both themselves and you?

I remember truly enjoying the process (and sense of achievement) of learning to read at school, as well as so many other things, in the company of lots of other children my age, who were not my siblings (that was important too - and cherished; sometimes it's good to escape your siblings also). In fact, those were the years I did read books avidly. By the time I'd reached 14...or even 11, I'd abandoned books in favour of sport...and then girls. You may argue that was a poor decision, and I may well have some sympathy with that notion now that I am much older. But you'd have had the mother of all fights with me back then if you'd tried to persuade me to stay indoors and read a book rather than go outside and chase a ball...or a girl. And yet, I still managed to pass all my exams comfortably.

Of course children teach themselves to some degree. That isn't the issue here. It's about what some parents might add to that during home schooling, influencing that child's development through either their own ignorance or malicious agenda. And yes, in the worst cases, abusing their children. To say that would go on anyway, regardless of home-schooling, ignores the possible escape route that schools might supply, and the respite from the worst excesses of bad parenting that it certainly would supply. If you can tell me that there are no bad parents, then fine. But you cannot. The evidence is overwhelmingly the opposite, and I have my own first hand knowledge of this, as do many people I've talked to and listened to throughout my life. It's not about how much the child can learn on its own at all - that's a complete red herring. It's about what some people may choose to 'teach' their children.

These people do exist, Malcolm, and there is a need to protect children from them, not risk exposing them to even more one-on-one time with those parents. Doesn't matter a fig that we're talking about a tiny minority of cases here. One is too many. Inspectors would be there to help (I know you think you don't need it, and perhaps you don't), not hinder. But also to hopefully detect problems that would certainly be left unchecked without their input. It's those cases, and only those that I'd be concerned about here, but it's those cases that I'd argue are very much worth the occasional inconvenience of all the good home-parenting families when the inspector calls.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 06:07:43 PM by Tarquin Thunderthighs lll »
I apologise, in advance.

Offline Tarquin Thunderthighs lll

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2019, 11:30:45 AM »
How's the bunker shaping up?  ;D

Portugal is looking really good. ;D

"Children living longer than 4 months in Portugal must attend school by law. Home education under Portuguese national curriculum only. Mandatory annual exams in Portuguese."  (Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_status_and_statistics )
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 11:33:35 AM by Tarquin Thunderthighs lll »
I apologise, in advance.

Offline Mince

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2019, 07:59:04 PM »
"Children living longer than 4 months in Portugal must attend school by law. Home education under Portuguese national curriculum only. Mandatory annual exams in Portuguese."  (Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_status_and_statistics )

I love how you quote everything other than the initial word: Legal

The Portuguese Constitution (Lei Constitucional n.º 1/2005 de 12 de Agosto) states: “Parents shall possess the right and the duty to educate their children” (Article 26.5). The Statute of Private and Cooperative Education (Decreto-Lei n.º 553/80, de 21 de Novembro) defines home education as “that which is taught in the student’s home by a relative or person with whom he dwells” (Article 3.4a).

However, I was referring to Portugal as our upcoming holiday, though I dare say we'll be arguing this even there.

Offline Mince

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2019, 08:56:23 PM »
Attending school does not "ensure" (not what I said) that this changes, but I'd argue that it gives the child a better change of escaping the cycle, by hearing and seeing different and diverse views of the world from others around them, rather than spending most of it's time at home with its parents.

Firstly, I completely agree. If you can now come up with a way of determining which children have bigots for parents, I'm sure we can also agree on a solution.


So, is it about producing exceptional children who can win competitions, or about giving your child a better education?

It's about children having the right to choose the education they wish to receive without someone else telling them it's somehow wrong or inferior.


you appear to be arguing that no skills are needed [by the parents]

Yes, I am. Yes, I am completely saying that. Yes, children do not need a parent helping them to gain an education. Yes, children left to themselves naturally learn how to learn. Yes, children who are not formally 'taught' learn faster and more deeply than those who are forced to learn when they are told, where they are told, how they are told and only by someone appointed to be the spoon-feeding teacher.

So the answer there is YES.

Even if a parent with no qualifications decides to help, he can always do so more effectively by working with the child one-to-one when the child needs guidance or help than any teacher with a class of thirty to teach.

On top of that, school kills creativity. Dr. George Land and Beth Jarman were asked by NASA to help the space agency identify and develop talent, specifically within schools. The researchers discovered that American school children lose their natural-born ability to think creatively the more time they spend within the school system.


But what if your decision results in your child not achieving the high standards you talk of (and those are also achieved by children who attend schools, by the way)? Are you going to feel you've failed them? Worse still, is your child going to feel they've failed both themselves and you?

Home-educated children frequently perform better than those who attend school. School fails children as well. I don't see what your point is here.


sometimes it's good to escape your siblings also).

Again, unschooled children have just as much opportunity to escape their siblings, and at better places than school.


In fact, those were the years I did read books avidly. By the time I'd reached 14...or even 11, I'd abandoned books in favour of sport...and then girls. You may argue that was a poor decision, and I may well have some sympathy with that notion now that I am much older. But you'd have had the mother of all fights with me back then if you'd tried to persuade me to stay indoors and read a book rather than go outside and chase a ball...or a girl. And yet, I still managed to pass all my exams comfortably.

Welcome to being unschooled: the idea that you can pursue your own interests, make the decision not to read, and still pass all your exams.


It's about what some parents might add to that during home schooling, influencing that child's development through either their own ignorance or malicious agenda. And yes, in the worst cases, abusing their children. To say that would go on anyway, regardless of home-schooling, ignores the possible escape route that schools might supply, and the respite from the worst excesses of bad parenting that it certainly would supply. If you can tell me that there are no bad parents, then fine. But you cannot. The evidence is overwhelmingly the opposite, and I have my own first hand knowledge of this, as do many people I've talked to and listened to throughout my life. It's not about how much the child can learn on its own at all - that's a complete red herring. It's about what some people may choose to 'teach' their children.

These people do exist, Malcolm, and there is a need to protect children from them, not risk exposing them to even more one-on-one time with those parents. Doesn't matter a fig that we're talking about a tiny minority of cases here. One is too many.

Up to here, at least on the abuse part, we completely agree. Your solution again is inspections. I have already detailed why I think this solution is costly, disproportionate, ineffective and damaging.

And again I am left wondering why "one is too many" for the unschooled but not the schooled.

Here's a better solution: have the schools and its facilities and libraries open for the unschooled, allowing them to come and go as they please. If any unschooled child does not put in a documented attendance of say an hour or so in the library or gym or canteen or playground or lesson, at least four times a year, send in the inspectors. I'd sign up on that.

Here's another solution: all children, schooled and unschooled, should be checked for abuse by trained NHS staff twice yearly until the age of say twelve. Sign me up for that one as well.

But no, the solution has to be inspectors and it has to be only for the unschooled.

Offline Tarquin Thunderthighs lll

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2019, 01:28:11 AM »
None of this was my idea or solution. I have simply been trying to explain to you why the subject you brought to this comic strip forum is not a bad idea. In fact, despite everything you've written in response, I still think it's a good idea.

And you know, some of us actually enjoyed school, and feel it served us well. I'd have been a very different person if I'd have been home-schooled, and I'm the progeny of a highly regarded child psychologist, and a language-teaching nanny. School was often a happier place than home for me. Do not try to tell me that all parents are technically equipped for home-schooling, when some aren't even well equipped to be parents.

"And again I am left wondering why "one is too many" for the unschooled but not the schooled."  Who said that? What a preposterous extrapolation.

Enjoy Portugal.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 01:32:52 AM by Tarquin Thunderthighs lll »
I apologise, in advance.

Offline Mince

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2019, 10:01:15 AM »
I have simply been trying to explain to you why the subject you brought to this comic strip forum is not a bad idea.

Actually, I brought some funny responses from a person who was against inspections. You started the argument. :)


School was often a happier place than home for me. Do not try to tell me that all parents are technically equipped for home-schooling, when some aren't even well equipped to be parents.

I have to agree with you on this point. Perhaps I should have said that all parents who wish to homeschool their children are equipped to do so.


"And again I am left wondering why "one is too many" for the unschooled but not the schooled."  Who said that? What a preposterous extrapolation.

Your 'inspectors' solution never mentioned the schooled.


Enjoy Portugal.

We're going to be there for Brexit. It should be fun.

Offline Tarquin Thunderthighs lll

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2019, 11:15:49 AM »
I saw nothing funny in any of your initial post.

So, what if those bad parents chose to home school? That’s the whole point here.

Schools are inspected all the time, and in fact the schools themselves act as ‘inspectors’ where the child’s welfare is concerned. Not perfect or flawlessly by any means, but more likely to pick up on problems than the people who might be responsible for them.

I love Brexit.
I apologise, in advance.

Offline Mince

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2019, 12:11:39 PM »
So, what if those bad parents chose to home school? That’s the whole point here.

Can we please always define what you mean by "bad"?

If you mean those who might abuse or indoctrinate their children, as I already said, I am with you on dealing with them, but disagree that home inspections would work. I have already given what I believe to be two better solutions.

If you mean those who are unable to provide their children with a good education, there are none, since children do not need parents in order to learn.

Offline Tarquin Thunderthighs lll

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2019, 01:37:04 PM »
Okay, I've defined it over and over again.

Abusers, yes. Bigots, yes.

But also, regardless of your faith in children to educate themselves (which I'm less convinced by than you are, beyond a certain level and/or direction), there will always be the chance that parents will simply take it upon themselves to teach kids utter garbage. None of this is about the kids, other than what's in their best interests - it's all about the parents. And even the best-intentioned and most loving of parents could still end up mis-teaching their kids through their own ignorance. I don't think I could have done it. My eldest daughter has just been promoted to head of science at the secondary school she teaches in. She'd never have got there if either her mother or me had decided to home-school her along with her sisters.

Children need guidance from adults, otherwise they'd leave home at around 3-years of age. Parents can and do guide their children, but as they grow, most parents are very happy to hand over some of that to others trained in how to take their children further. Not all of these adults are born to the role, but some are utterly brilliant at it. I can still name you all of mine, more than 40 years on from when I last enjoyed their lessons.
I apologise, in advance.

Offline Tarquin Thunderthighs lll

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2019, 02:09:00 PM »
School also taught me how to play many sports that I still love today, and how to be a team player. Attempts at a musical education failed, sadly, but not for want of me trying...and enjoying, or the efforts to teach me. School developed my artistic skills where my parents could not, and taught me how to cope with large social occasions as well as smaller ones, and have the confidence to even stand out within those contexts at times.

Not necessarily within the classrooms either. School is so much more than learning facts and practical skills. Outside the classroom (and occasionally within it), I learned how to maintain friendships, stand up to bullies, and even love. School was a grounding for the rest of my life, and an invaluable bridge between home and work.

I met many other children who became friends, some for life. I'm currently on a committee organising a reunion of my year group from '71-'77 for this October, which has attracted a lot of interest, and if the joy of the actual event comes anywhere near to the fun we've had at our committee meetings so far, it will be a huge success. It was only 5-6 years of our lives, but the memories, mostly good, are very strong for us all, and deemed worthy by many former pupils travelling from far-flung places to relive for one evening later this year.

I accept that for some, school was and is a wretched institution, for a variety of reasons. Nothing is perfect, but that in itself is an invaluable lesson for life.
I apologise, in advance.

Offline Mince

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2019, 03:20:51 PM »
But also, regardless of your faith in children to educate themselves (which I'm less convinced by than you are, beyond a certain level and/or direction), there will always be the chance that parents will simply take it upon themselves to teach kids utter garbage.

From Psychology Today (emphasis is mine): As adults we do have certain responsibilities toward our children and the world's children. It is our responsibility to create safe, health-promoting, respectful environments in which children can develop. It is our responsibility to be sure that children have proper foods, fresh air, non-toxic places to play, and lots of opportunities to interact freely with other people across the whole spectrum of ages. It is our responsibility to be models of human decency. But one thing we do not have to worry about is how to educate children.

We do not have to worry about curricula, lesson plans, motivating children to learn, testing them, and all the rest that comes under the rubric of pedagogy. Lets turn that energy, instead, toward creating decent environments in which children can play. Children's education is children's responsibility, not ours. Only they can do it. They are built to do it. Our task regarding education is just to stand back and let it happen. The more we try to control it, the more we interfere.

There's more proof should you wish to read it.

And then here's a video to start you off:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRb7_ffl2D0
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 03:25:07 PM by Mince »

Offline Tarquin Thunderthighs lll

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2019, 05:25:58 PM »
Ah, so all this is so you can put your feet up and do bugger all at home whilst pretending you're educating your children. I get it now.  ..0

Tell me something. If your child reaches up to grab a boiling pot from a stove, do you do nothing and let it learn that's not a good idea. Or do you intervene and teach it stop it, then tell it why?

No, I really don't want to see more 'proof' (the quote you posted was not proof of anything - it was a speech...and I couldn't listen to the video for more than a minute because of the background noise), because I'm not denying that children can learn many things by themselves, in childhood and well beyond (I'm still learning). Up to a point. Having the discipline to do it is another matter, when the choice to have noneducational fun is available and free. Left to my own devices, I'd have undoubtedly been better at football (but still not good enough to be a pro), and much more knowledgeable about TV cartoons. I'd almost certainly never have engaged in technical/engineering drawing, which was by far and away my favourite subject at school, and one that has helped me enormously in my chosen profession, even though that deviated from the more traditional occupations associated with the subject. I never intended to become a historian, mathematician, scientist or geographer, but I'm grateful for the little knowledge of each I was given, and enjoyed learning about things I'd never have found interesting as a child. Occasionally, the knowledge still comes in useful, although mostly at pub quizzes admittedly (but not exclusively). I would not have sought it out on my own, as a child.

But all of that aside, once again, the children are the concern, not the worry. You may tell parents till you're blue in the face to just "stand back and let it happen", but I know...and you know...that isn't how it will work.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 05:29:38 PM by Tarquin Thunderthighs lll »
I apologise, in advance.

Offline Mince

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2019, 05:48:26 PM »
Ah, so all this is so you can put your feet up and do bugger all at home whilst pretending you're educating your children. I get it now.  ..0

Isn't that what you did when you sent your children to school? ..0


Tell me something. If your child reaches up to grab a boiling pot from a stove, do you do nothing and let it learn that's not a good idea. Or do you intervene and teach it stop it, then tell it why?

From Psychology Today: ... It is our responsibility to be sure that children have ... non-toxic places to play ...


Left to my own devices, I'd have undoubtedly been better at football (but still not good enough to be a pro), and much more knowledgeable about TV cartoons.

The fact that you have no doubts does not make it true. And I can't believe you would have been that stupid.


I'd almost certainly never have engaged in technical/engineering drawing, which was by far and away my favourite subject at school, and one that has helped me enormously in my chosen profession, even though that deviated from the more traditional occupations associated with the subject.

Why do you think an unschooled child cannot learn technical drawing, and at an earlier age than you did at school?


I never intended to become a historian, mathematician, scientist or geographer, but I'm grateful for the little knowledge of each I was given, and enjoyed learning about things I'd never have found interesting as a child.

So, you attended school. You never found them interesting. Gee, there must be a connection there.


I would not have sought it out on my own, as a child.

This is what school does to children.


You may tell parents till you're blue in the face to just "stand back and let it happen", but I know...and you know...that isn't how it will work.

You may tell parents till you're blue in the face to just "send them to school and let it happen", but I know...and you know...that isn't how it will work. What's it like having words put into your mouth?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 05:53:55 PM by Mince »

Offline Tarquin Thunderthighs lll

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2019, 07:36:59 PM »
Ah, so all this is so you can put your feet up and do bugger all at home whilst pretending you're educating your children. I get it now.  ..0

Isn't that what you did when you sent your children to school? ..0

Probably...for about an hour, enjoying the peace. Then I went to work.

Tell me something. If your child reaches up to grab a boiling pot from a stove, do you do nothing and let it learn that's not a good idea. Or do you intervene and teach it stop it, then tell it why?

From Psychology Today: ... It is our responsibility to be sure that children have ... non-toxic places to play ...

Kitchens are not play areas at all. You need to teach your children this.

Left to my own devices, I'd have undoubtedly been better at football (but still not good enough to be a pro), and much more knowledgeable about TV cartoons.

The fact that you have no doubts does not make it true. And I can't believe you would have been that stupid.

Believe it. And I am far from alone in that.


I'd almost certainly never have engaged in technical/engineering drawing, which was by far and away my favourite subject at school, and one that has helped me enormously in my chosen profession, even though that deviated from the more traditional occupations associated with the subject.

Why do you think an unschooled child cannot learn technical drawing, and at an earlier age than you did at school?

Because I had no idea what technical drawing even was until my first week at secondary school. Someone had to show me.


I never intended to become a historian, mathematician, scientist or geographer, but I'm grateful for the little knowledge of each I was given, and enjoyed learning about things I'd never have found interesting as a child.

So, you attended school. You never found them interesting. Gee, there must be a connection there.

I have no idea what your sarcasm is referring to here. Teach me what it means.


I would not have sought it out on my own, as a child.

This is what school does to children.

Good job, too.

You may tell parents till you're blue in the face to just "stand back and let it happen", but I know...and you know...that isn't how it will work.

You may tell parents till you're blue in the face to just "send them to school and let it happen", but I know...and you know...that isn't how it will work. What's it like having words put into your mouth?

Again, that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. None at all.
I apologise, in advance.